And judging isn’t a bad thing. Someone axe murders someone and we say, “hey that’s bad!” And if someone says, “who are you to judge?” Well, I’d respond by saying that I’m a human being with the ability to think, reason and act – and to judge.

I think there’s a subtext in your words that she’s judging you because you’re gay – or she’s judging your friends who are gay – or something. It’s a little unclear. But you could throw her for a loop and say something like, “I prayed to God to forgive my frailties and God forgave me. And God spoke to me and told me that there would be people inspired by hatred and bigotry and God told me that I should forgive them – that they would have to atone for their sins and answer to Him on their judgement day. God spoke to me and said that like everyone I have been made in His image – a perfect product of his creation and things are right with us.”

Something like that would freak her out. Heh.

When you’re done with the Sedaris book, check out “Running with Scizzors.”

Oh.. and by the way.. I’ve been voyeur to your journal for awhile.. it’s awesome. Kudos!

-Zuzu

I like your idea, except that I don’t believe in God, so I’m not sure she’d take it the right way. But I think you’re right, it is our place to judge, sometimes. But I judge by placing myself into the equation. There are some killings I’m just not sure about: for example, when someone has been beaten or raped for many years, I’ve never been through that. Were I in that position, would I kill the person? Would I do what that other person has done? Other murders are different, those over money…well, I need money, but I don’t go out and kill for it. How would I react to a girl talking about her gay friends if I were an older minister’s wife?

Still, there are some things I believe we will be judged on leaving this life, so my judging is simply redundant. And sort of busy-body-ish, which I am quite frequently… Sometimes I’m very judgemental.

I will definetely check ou Running with Scissors. It looks like a great book.

Oh, and I don’t think that you have to believe in God to say that you’ve talked to God (him/her/is/whatever…) There are many people that I speak to and with that I really don’t believe in.

There are concessions now in the law for “battered wife syndrome” – for people killing their abusers – where the penalty isn’t as stiff. Sure it’s still a crime, but ultimately it’s judged differently. I think it’s a good discussion – it’s precisely the kind of ethical/moral questions that leads each of us to define and refine our beliefs, our values.. our mores. The question that comes up for me is about options… was killing the abuser the only option? Sometimes I think it is the only option. Mostly I think it’s not the only option. When a person kills, it irretrievably changes them – there is no looking back into the eyes of innocense.

So how would you react to a girl talking about her gay friends if you were a ministers wife? That’s tough – it really depends on that minister’s wife’s references. I think you’ll like Running with Scissors… his mother is sleeping with the minister’s wife.

If she’s a lesbian and living a lie, it might be really, really invalidating for her to hear someone accepting homosexuality. She might feel, you know, how can she continue to live with and in all this misery if who she really is, what she really wants isn’t a sin? That would be so painful to accept – she’d have to say you were wrong… in her shoes, all the way into the toes of her shoes, if this is who is she is, you are turning a knife and it must be killing her.

Or say that she’s taken her teachings quite literally (though this is doubtful.) “Different” is sometimes very threatening to people.

There’s so much grey… maybe the most interesting stuff would come from sitting down to coffee with the minister’s wife and asking her why she thinks it’s wrong.

Judging isn’t busy-bodyish.. it might not lead to any kind of retribution, but those things we choose to look at, hold up to the light, judge goodly or badly, they are a reflection of our character and it is the dialog that shapes who we are. For example.. if I were to judge you because you weren’t wearing the right labels for the season it may be very easy to see that my judgement(s) say more about me than they do about you. My judgements say that I’m shallow and superficial, perhaps. If I judge that it’s okay for a person to kill their abuser outright, that also says something about me.. it reveals my values – it says something much deeper than the previous judgement – it speaks to the very fundamental core of how I value and when I do not value, perhaps, life… One really can’t find or truly participate in community until they begin to articulate their values.

But back to the subject re: your gay friends. I have to say that I can’t even imagine the context where I would be speaking about my friends and their sexual orientation would be any part of the conversation.. unless I’m setting someone up on a date or something. Hmmm….

Thanks for your journal.. I did say it was awesome.. it really is quite awesome.

-Zuzu

I just wanted to comment on the “sexual orientation” in our conversation. It didn’t even occur to me that I was bringing it up. I mean, I’ll admit that I’ll talk about the president in front of her to get a rise, but I was simply talking about two friends of mine who are considering marriage. The whole class was talking about changing names, and as I’m not certain I want to take Tom’s last name (I mean, it’s my NAME, y’know?) we were discussing other options. My friends had recently discussed inventing a new last name or none at all (like Madonna) and I thought it was a funny story of “what works best with these names,” and the hillarious fight to come up with the one that works Worst with them. If I’d been thinking I would have changed one to be a guy’s name, or maybe not. It’s my right to have friends who love each other who are both girls, no? Anyway, I never even got a chance to share the funny part, which saddened me.

My sister married a few years ago, she hyphenated her last name – I don’t know what last name her kids use. A woman who interned for me created a new last name, a hybrid of her and her partner’s first names. My boss got married earlier this year – on a whim she went to City Hall enroute to dropping her partner off at the airport. I think they both kept their own last names, and I’m not sure what name they’re using for their son. So I truthfully didn’t edit any of the way I would talk or write about this for any of the couples of concern – and I’d bet my eye teeth you wouldn’t know which of the aforementioned couples are lesbian partners (maybe all of them!) Because, of course, the point isn’t that they’re lesbians, the point is how they are dealing with their last name in coupling.

But on the subject of marriage… I think it’s somewhat bigotted for a heterosexual couple to indulge in the institution of marriage when gay and lesbian couples are disallowed of the priveledges of marriage afforded by the state and many (if not most) employers. Pretend there was a college fund with certain benefits that was only available to white students. Would it be racist to access that fund? I think yes. So this is how I feel about marriage. Any heterosexual couple who marries in the eyes of the church and state while sexual minorities are not allowed this priveledge and right are participating in the perpetuation of an oppressive institution. While I say this I also find the ritual and ceremony of marriage – of celebrating one’s relationship and announcing it to one’s community in ritutal and celebration to be an awesome and important ceremony – one which outside of the trappings of church and state everyone, clearly, has full right and priveledge to do.. and I love that.

To me, I don’t see much difference between the overt comments of the minister’s wife and the more sinister implications of a straight couple, no matter how proclaimed left-leaning, who would marry under church and/or state. I mean, at least the minister’s wife is out there, you know how she stands, she’s honest. This is just one of those things that’s always bugged me…

Heh… you got me thinking too… ((I know, you’re thinking, start your own damn blog… don’t mean to detract from all the fabulousness here.. sorry, sorry, sorry…. )) Have a great day!

-Zuzu

Also using the term “partner” allows you to share stories about people, precisely in the context being discussed, with out “outing” people (be they straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc.) I’m very conscious in my speech about this – I am as conscious about outing someone as hetero as I am about outing someone as homosexual… That generally seems like personal information that a given individual should have power to reveal or not, as they deem appropriate – not me… someone’s sexual orientation is not coffee table talk, but rather very personal and something only they should be revealing.. unless they are a public person, however, who chooses to live in the public eye.

I believe that everyone should have the right to marry. But just because everyone doesn’t currently possess that right legally does not mean that I am wrong in doing so.

I’m rather frustrated that you chose to mention it in this way. If you’ve read my blog you know that I recently got engaged. It seems you’re making a rather personal attack upon me in a circumvent manner. I’d much prefer you came right out and say it next time.

As I did write, however, I think the ritual and ceremony of marriage – of announcing one’s relationship to one’s community, of celebrating one’s relationship through ceremony and ritual is really beautiful – is awesome.

I don’t think not eating when some go hungry or not reading when others can’t read is quite the same thing – eating and reading aren’t institutions.

But/and, hey.. what a great opportunity and timing to consider it… why not have the ceremony and the ritual and not go through the state? Just a thought… what’s the down side?

AND I do apologize if I hit a nerve, I didn’t realize you were recently engaged.

-Zuzu