Bohemian Delilah

13 responses so far ↓

• 1 Zuzu // Aug 3, 2004 at 12:32 am

  Firstly, it’s true.. it’s her God-given right not only to judge you, but also your friends, including your gay friends. The very crux of religion is the discernment, the judging between things - you know.. like good and evil and all that rot. Many people, I think, mistake having religion as not being prone to judgement. To the contrary, Christianity gives one a text as a framework and guide for judgements - that’s precisely what it’s all about.

  And judging isn’t a bad thing. Someone axe murders someone and we say, “hey that’s bad!” And if someone says, “who are you to judge?” Well, I’d respond by saying that I’m a human being with the ability to think, reason and act - and to judge.

  I think there’s a subtext in your words that she’s judging you because you’re gay - or she’s judging your friends who are gay - or something. It’s a little unclear. But you could throw her for a loop and say something like, “I prayed to God to forgive my frailties and God forgave me. And God spoke to me and told me that there would be people inspired by hatred and bigotry and God told me that I should forgive them - that they would have to atone for their sins and answer to Him on their judgement day. God spoke to me and said that like everyone I have been made in His image - a perfect product of his creation and things are right with us.”

  Something like that would freak her out. Heh.

  When you’re done with the Sedaris book, check out “Running with Scizzors.”

  Oh.. and by the way.. I’ve been voyeur to your journal for awhile.. it’s awesome. Kudos!

  -Zuzu

• 2 Del // Aug 4, 2004 at 12:34 pm

  +blush+ y’all say the nicest things.

  I like your idea, except that I don’t believe in God, so I’m not sure she’d take it the right way. But I think you’re right, it is our place to judge, sometimes. But I judge by placing myself into the equation. There are some killings I’m just not sure about: for example, when someone has been beaten or raped for many years, I’ve never been through that. Were I in that position, would I kill the person? Would I do what that other person has done? Other murders are different, those over money…well, I need money, but I don’t go out and kill for it. How would I react to a girl talking about her gay friends if I were an older minister’s wife?

  Still, there are some things I believe we will be judged on leaving this life, so my judging is simply redundant. And sort of busy-body-ish, which I am quite frequently… Sometimes I’m very judgemental.

  I will definetely check ou Running with Scissors. It looks like a great book.

• 3 jlacivita // Aug 4, 2004 at 4:32 pm

  mmmm PCC. sometimes i want to go back.

• 4 Zuzu // Aug 5, 2004 at 2:30 am

  Interesting. I’m not sure if I believe in God or not. I think I do.. I feel I do… maybe not - I believe in many things.. do I believe in a “creator” in a Godhead in an Infinite Radiant Is? I feel I might. Be that as it may… I am the grand daughter of a Pentecostal Preacher all full of passion and fury - he, the grandfather, is long dead - but what a colorful character. In truth, only a God could have created him….

  Oh, and I don’t think that you have to believe in God to say that you’ve talked to God (him/her/is/whatever…) There are many people that I speak to and with that I really don’t believe in.

  There are concessions now in the law for “battered wife syndrome” - for people killing their abusers - where the penalty isn’t as stiff. Sure it’s still a crime, but ultimately it’s judged differently. I think it’s a good discussion - it’s precisely the kind of ethical/moral questions that leads each of us to define and refine our beliefs, our values.. our mores. The question that comes up for me is about options… was killing the abuser the only option? Sometimes I think it is the only option. Mostly I think it’s not the only option. When a person kills, it irretrievably changes them - there is no looking back into the eyes of innocense.

  So how would you react to a girl talking about her gay friends if you were a ministers wife? That’s tough - it really depends on that minister’s wife’s references. I think you’ll like Running with Scissors… his mother is sleeping with the minister’s wife.

  If she’s a lesbian and living a lie, it might be really, really invalidating for her to hear someone accepting homosexuality. She might feel, you know, how can she continue to live with and in all this misery if who she really is, what she really wants isn’t a sin? That would be so painful to accept - she’d have to say you were wrong… in her shoes, all the way into the toes of her shoes, if this is who is she is, you are turning a knife and it must be killing her.

  Or say that she’s taken her teachings quite literally (though this is doubtful.) “Different” is sometimes very threatening to people.

  There’s so much grey… maybe the most interesting stuff would come from sitting down to coffee with the minister’s wife and asking her why she thinks it’s wrong.

  Judging isn’t busy-bodyish.. it might not lead to any kind of retribution, but those things we choose to look at, hold up to the light, judge goodly or badly, they are a reflection of our character and it is the dialog that shapes who we are. For example.. if I were to judge you because you weren’t wearing the right labels for the season it may be very easy to see that my judgement(s) say more about me than they do about you. My judgements say that I’m shallow and superficial, perhaps. If I judge that it’s okay for a person to kill their abuser outright, that also says something about me.. it reveals my values - it says something much deeper than the previous judgement - it speaks to the very fundamental core of how I value and when I do not value, perhaps, life… One really can’t find or truly participate in community until they begin to articulate their values.

  But back to the subject re: your gay friends. I have to say that I can’t even imagine the context where I would be speaking about my friends and their sexual orientation would be any part of the conversation.. unless I’m setting someone up on a date or something. Hmmm….

  Thanks for your journal.. I did say it was awesome.. it really is quite awesome.

  -Zuzu

• 5 Del // Aug 5, 2004 at 10:10 am

  Hmmm. You’ve given me a lot to think on.

  I just wanted to comment on the “sexual orientation” in our conversation. It didn’t even occur to me that I was bringing it up. I mean, I’ll admit that I’ll talk about the president in front of her to get a rise, but I was simply talking about two friends of mine who are considering marriage. The whole class was talking about changing names, and as I’m not certain I want to take Tom’s last name (I mean, it’s my NAME, y’know?) we were discussing other options. My friends had recently discussed inventing a new last name or none at all (like Madonna) and I thought it was a funny story of “what works best with these names,” and the hillarious fight to come up with the one that works Worst with them. If I’d been thinking I would have changed one to be a guy’s name, or maybe not. It’s my right to have friends who love each other who are both girls, no? Anyway, I never even got a chance to share the funny part, which saddened me.

• 6 Zuzu // Aug 5, 2004 at 1:45 pm

  No.. you absolutely should not have changed one of the names to be a guys name.. er… um… in my humble opinion. And I don’t think it’s really an ommission issue for me either.

  My sister married a few years ago, she hyphenated her last name - I don’t know what last name her kids use. A woman who interned for me created a new last name, a hybrid of her and her partner’s first names. My boss got married earlier this year - on a whim she went to City Hall enroute to dropping her partner off at the airport. I think they both kept their own last names, and I’m not sure what name they’re using for their son. So I truthfully didn’t edit any of the way I would talk or write about this for any of the couples of concern - and I’d bet my eye teeth you wouldn’t know which of the aforementioned couples are lesbian partners (maybe all of them!) Because, of course, the point isn’t that they’re lesbians, the point is how they are dealing with their last name in coupling.

  But on the subject of marriage… I think it’s somewhat bigotted for a heterosexual couple to indulge in the institution of marriage when gay and lesbian couples are disallowed of the priveledges of marriage afforded by the state and many (if not most) employers. Pretend there was a college fund with certain benefits that was only available to white students. Would it be racist to access that fund? I think yes. So this is how I feel about marriage. Any heterosexual couple who marries in the eyes of the church and state while sexual minorities are not allowed this priveledge and right are participating in the perpetuation of an oppressive institution. While I say this I also find the ritual and ceremony of marriage - of celebrating one’s relationship and announcing it to one’s community in ritutal and celebration to be an awesome and important ceremony - one which outside of the trappings of church and state everyone, clearly, has full right and priveledge to do.. and I love that.

  To me, I don’t see much difference between the overt comments of the minister’s wife and the more sinister implications of a straight couple, no matter how proclaimed left-leaning, who would marry under church and/or state. I mean, at least the minister’s wife is out there, you know how she stands, she’s honest. This is just one of those things that’s always bugged me…

  Heh… you got me thinking too… ((I know, you’re thinking, start your own damn blog… don’t mean to detract from all the fabulousness here.. sorry, sorry, sorry…. )) Have a great day!

  -Zuzu

• 7 Liz // Aug 6, 2004 at 8:38 am

  You know its funny, when I heard Zuzu talking about the examples of her friends and their partners I immediately assumed they were all gay or lesbian. The choice of the word partner is sticky, usually means gay or that they have a funeral home or law firm together. There really arent gender neutral but unstigmatized words for marriage.

• 8 Zuzu // Aug 6, 2004 at 3:24 pm

  Heh.. they’re not all gay… I routinely use the term “partner” when referring to someone’s partner - because most of the straight couples I know find the terms “husband” and “wife” archaic and having implications of ownership/chattle, “long-time campanion” referring to long-standing gay relationships is so retro.. is so eighties.. no one uses that anymore except in obituaries occasionally.

  Also using the term “partner” allows you to share stories about people, precisely in the context being discussed, with out “outing” people (be they straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc.) I’m very conscious in my speech about this - I am as conscious about outing someone as hetero as I am about outing someone as homosexual… That generally seems like personal information that a given individual should have power to reveal or not, as they deem appropriate - not me… someone’s sexual orientation is not coffee table talk, but rather very personal and something only they should be revealing.. unless they are a public person, however, who chooses to live in the public eye.

• 9 Del // Aug 8, 2004 at 6:06 pm

  I’ve friends who told me they wouldn’t marry until everyone was allowed to marry. And it made me think about it. But to say that I’m being sinister by getting married is like saying that I’m a monster for eating when so many others in the world can’t, or for reading when there are so many others out there who haven’t the opportunity to learn.

  I believe that everyone should have the right to marry. But just because everyone doesn’t currently possess that right legally does not mean that I am wrong in doing so.

  I’m rather frustrated that you chose to mention it in this way. If you’ve read my blog you know that I recently got engaged. It seems you’re making a rather personal attack upon me in a circumvent manner. I’d much prefer you came right out and say it next time.

• 10 Zuzu // Aug 9, 2004 at 1:41 am

  Whoops… I’m sorry. I’ve only recently started reading your blog and I did NOT know that you recently got engaged. I did NOT intend my comments to be a personal attack, I had no idea that you were getting married. Really, I’ve only been reading for a short while and I guess I haven’t read back that far…

  As I did write, however, I think the ritual and ceremony of marriage - of announcing one’s relationship to one’s community, of celebrating one’s relationship through ceremony and ritual is really beautiful - is awesome.

  I don’t think not eating when some go hungry or not reading when others can’t read is quite the same thing - eating and reading aren’t institutions.

  But/and, hey.. what a great opportunity and timing to consider it… why not have the ceremony and the ritual and not go through the state? Just a thought… what’s the down side?

  AND I do apologize if I hit a nerve, I didn’t realize you were recently engaged.

  -Zuzu

• 11 Del // Aug 14, 2004 at 1:04 pm

  But education is an institution. And there are some places where some people aren’t allowed it.

  Also, if everyone felt as you did then there wouldn’t be people taking advantage of the laws in Massachusetts.

  I support the institutuion of marriage for everyone. And I’m going to get married, by law. Because I feel that is how we reinforce the sanctity marriage, by showing people that you marry the person you love, whoever they are. When you meet the right person (or people) I hope that you are able to make that choice for yourself. But the truth is, as I need to keep telling my mom, who wants me to marry in a church, the union you form with someone else is between you and them, and you decide how you want to share it. If you take someone else’s advice, or do something because you want to appease other people that is what you’ll base the rest of your relationship on. I want to be married and I want my children (which I will have) to be protected under the laws. It is unfortunate that the institution isn’t fair, but I do what I can to change that. And my not marrying wouldn’t affect anyone’s opinion in either direction.

• 12 Zuzu // Aug 14, 2004 at 3:20 pm

  You are absolutely right - in all things and perhaps especially relationships one should follow the dictates on one’s heart.

  and again, I apoligize for offending… I was really merely sharing my opinion on the subject of your blog that day.. you know.. really just commenting with no malintent. Some say intention makes a difference.. others say it does not.. interesting thing to ponder…

  I wish you the best and wholly support you in realizing your relationship(s) in ways that are meaningful to you, reflect your beliefs, support your personal and world views and mirror the examined depths of who you are. I would never wish or hope for anyone to do other than this.

• 13 Del // Aug 15, 2004 at 11:30 am

  I’m sorry, I meant to tell you that I realized you didn’t mean any offense. It was simply that you said you read my blog for awhile. There’ve recently been a number of “holire than thou” people to my site leaving rather frustrating emails. You sounded like one of them.

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